Author Topic: Couple of Stories for ya  (Read 2185 times)

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Offline AG-51_Hoss

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Couple of Stories for ya
« on: February 16, 2017, 08:02:21 PM »
Read these the other day, just now getting around to posting them now.....

How Often Does The F-35 Need To Refuel?

A recent, lengthy journey by U.S. Marine Corps F-35Bs traveling from Arizona to Japan has sparked a quiet debate within the Pentagon about how often the stealthy fighter needs to refuel during ocean crossings.

It took seven days for 10 U.S. Marine Corps F-35Bs to fly from Yuma to their new home at Iwakuni, Japan, a flight that on a commercial airliner normally takes less than 24 hr. Many factors contribute to the time it takes a military fighter to get from point A to point B: weather, terrain and pilot fatigue, to name just a few. But on this particular voyage, the U.S. Air Force's conservative refueling model required the Marine Corps aircraft to refuel with accompanying tankers a grand total of 250 times, a number the Marine Corps' top aviator says is far too high for an efficient ocean-crossing.

"The airplane has got longer legs than an F-18 with drop tanks, so why are we going with the tanker so often? We don't need to do that," said Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, Marine Corps commandant for aviation. "We are tanking a lot more than we should, maybe double [what we should.] We could be a lot more efficient than that."

While Davis says the tanking model for refueling the Joint Strike Fighter is "off in an overly conservative manner," it is ultimately up to the Air Force to set the rules--and the air arm is not budging.

An often overlooked piece of the air logistics puzzle is tanker refueling, a critical enabler for operations around the world. Fighters are thirsty aircraft, and the F-35 is no exception, said Air Force spokesman Col. Chris Karns. During the Jan. 18-25 crossing to Iwakuni, nine tankers flew with the 10 F-35Bs, transferring a total of 766,000 lb. of fuel over 250 aerial refuelings, or 25 per F-35, according to Karns.

The Marine Corps does have tankers--the legacy KC-130s--but only Air Force tankers support fighter ocean crossings.

It comes as no surprise to Air Force Brig. Gen. Scott Pleus that the Marine Corps jets needed to refuel so many times during the crossing to Iwakuni. The Air Force sets up ocean crossings assuming the worst-case scenario, so that if any aircraft is not able to get fuel at any given time during the journey--whether due to weather or a technical malfunction--the entire group has enough gas to land safely, Pleus explained. For instance, the F-35Bs flew with their refueling probes out during the entire voyage, which significantly increases drag on the aircraft, to simulate a scenario in which the operator is not able to retract the probe. "So when we plan these things we take the worst winds, we take the worst configuration of the airplane, and we say: at the worst time, what would happen?" said Pleus, a former F-16 pilot who now heads the Air Force's F-35 integration office. "It is very conservative, and the reason why we're so conservative is because it's a life or death decisi
on."

Traditionally the Air Force refuels "almost continuously" when crossing a large body of water, as often as every 30 or 40 min., Pleus said. An F-35B, which carries 5,000 lb. less fuel than the Air Force F-35A, likely needs to hit the tanker even more often than that, he noted.

Pleus pushed back on Davis' criticism, stressing that extending time between refuelings during an ocean crossing would mean more risk to pilots.

During a combat scenario, however, the Air Force would have a different calculus. Typically on a 6-hr. mission, a pilot would tank just two or three times, according to one Air Force official. It is important to top up before the mission because tankers are too vulnerable to fly alongside fighters during combat.

Fighters are often in the spotlight, but the tanker piece is equally important to national defense--without it, the F-35's global reach is impossible, Karns emphasized "The F-35 and projected future fighter and bomber requirements only reinforce the need for the next generation of tanker capability to ensure rapid global response across nine combatant commands in an environment where seconds and minutes matter," Karns said. "As the fighter force increases, it is apparent that global tanker demand and potential future threats will drive an increase for the next generation of tankers."

 

 

 

China's Air-to-Air Missiles Nearing Parity with West

LONDON--China is nearing parity in air-to-air missile technology with the West, according to an analysis by the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS).

The rapid introduction and sheer wide range of new air-to-air weaponry is "unheralded" in terms of pace of development, Douglas Barrie, IISS's senior aerospace fellow, told journalists at the launch of the institute's Military Balance publication. The weaponry includes the apparent development of a long-range weapon to target high-value aircraft such as tankers and airborne early warning platforms.

The IISS named the PL-10 short-range air-to-air missile as being in a class "only a handful of leading aerospace nations are able to develop," said John Chipman, the IISS's director general and CEO. "The PL-10 represents the effort that Beijing is making in the development of air-launched guided weapons.

"These systems will be close to parity with similar Western weapons while one has no Western equivalent," Chipman said in reference to the large, 5.8-meter-long missile photographed on a Peoples' Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) J-16 fighter late last year. It could have a range of up to 300 km.

Barrie also noted developments of the PL-12 missile, which could provide a capability like that of early model AIM-120 Amraams; and the PL-15, which is a development of the PL-12 but features shorter fins for compressed carriage. It could possibly be used in the weapon bays of the Chengdu J-20 fighter reportedly beginning to enter service with the PLAAF. There are also suggestions of at least two programs looking at ramjet-powered air-to-air missiles similar to the European MBDA Meteor weapon.

"Put these together and you have a very capable palette of air-to-air weapons," Barrie said.

It was also likely that such weapons would quickly proliferate through Chinese export sales. But the doctrines and training to make the best use of such weapons is still some way off from parity with the West. Barrie said there was evidence that the PLAAF was now making use of free play-style training with the air force, shifting away from a Soviet-style ground-controlled intercept-based system.

It was also noted that China's armed UAVs were also finding export customers in the Middle East and Africa. With the U.S. reluctant to provide armed General Atomics MQ-1 Predators or MQ-9 Reapers, some nations such as Saudi Arabia and Iraq have approached China for such systems instead. Both countries have ordered the Chengdu Wing Loong platform.

Cheers

Hoss

Offline AG-51_Razor

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Re: Couple of Stories for ya
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2017, 08:28:05 PM »
Very interesting, thanks for posting Hoss  :thumbsup:


Any pilot that tells you he's never been lost is either lying or he's never been anywhere.

Offline AG-51_Bulldog

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Re: Couple of Stories for ya
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2017, 01:27:47 AM »
Definitely interesting and educational and somewhat scary....


"If you think your 6 is clear, I guess you're not thinking" ;~)

Offline AG-51_Hoss

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Re: Couple of Stories for ya
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2017, 07:49:47 PM »
China's quick and not so surprising meteoric parity with the west stems from the robust cyber spying they do............. most of the "New" stuff they have looks a lot like ours..............  not to mention all the Chinese nationals here working for defense companies that are caught sending stuff to China................  they steal just as much stuff from everyone else though................. 

We won't know how good their stuff is until the lead flies, or we get into a scrape with someone who is using their wares...........  Like the Israeli's F-15's owing Syrian Migs and Su's...............  Of course the Israeli's are a kick ass bunch............  they have a shit load of kills with the F-15 and not one loss...................

Cheers

Hoss

Offline AG-51_Razor

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Re: Couple of Stories for ya
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2017, 10:59:49 PM »
We hired a pilot a couple of years ago that had been working in China, flying an S-76 offshore to an oil rig from the Shanghai area. He had to fly with Chinese co-pilots and his opinion was not very high of their training or their understanding of complicated mechanical systems, much less their ability to exercise any initiative when called for. He said that their infrastructure was very modern and impressive but when shit hit the fan, they completely lost it!


Any pilot that tells you he's never been lost is either lying or he's never been anywhere.

Offline AG-51_Hoss

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Re: Couple of Stories for ya
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2017, 10:52:11 PM »
Goes back to the Russian doctrine where everything is tightly controlled and orchestrated......... no freedom to think on their own............ i read an article where the Chinese are beginning to train their pilots with western ROE doctrine.  Not sure how well they are adapting or if there is still that communist idiom of not allowing too much freedom of thought and action on an individual level.  Guess we will find out if and when the shit hits the fan.............

Hoss

Offline AG-51_Razor

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Re: Couple of Stories for ya
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2017, 11:40:41 AM »
What this guy was referring to was their society as a whole. They have developed some very sophisticated technology but the folks entrusted to run it are not prepared to deal with any failures within the systems they are in.


Any pilot that tells you he's never been lost is either lying or he's never been anywhere.